Failure is Impossible, in churches too.

Go get 'em, girlfriend! (3.00 / 4)

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by: tapster @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 08:50:48 AM CDT

I've got to tell you I'm conflicted on this one... (3.00 / 1)

We attend mass at a Maronite rite RC church, and Hubby's entire family is Roman Catholic...

...we're very supportive of the progressive activist branch of the American Catholic Church, the one that fights against war, and calls for an end to the death penalty, and talks unabashedly about economic justice.

The experience of being a Catholic member is, I believe, different from being in the Catholic heirarchy.

The anachronism here is not limited to the Catholic Church - in fairness, many Protestant churches also do not allow women to be ministers.

The problem is one of tradition...and I don't know that folks who haven't lived the Catholic experience can appreciate what that conflict really means in the life of an institution that in many ways prides itself on being able to trace its roots directly back to St. Peter.

At the end of the day, the change will have to come from inside the church itself, as the woman who was interviewed in this article hinted at. The best chance for that level of change is a growth in the more liberal and progressive parts of the Catholic Church (and not just in the US)...but that's an entirely different subject ;-)

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:04:07 AM CDT

I don't recall any churches (3.00 / 2)

other than the Catholic church that decree descrimination though.  It may be 'de facto' but to decree it takes it a step further.   There is no justifying descrimination IMO whether it is a church or another workplace.  I can recall many years that men tried to justify it by telling us they didn't want us doing 'men's work' because they 'respected' us too much.  Sure they did!  They respected us so much they paid us half or less than other workers made.'   I don't need that sort of respect.  When it comes to churches, who needs heritage when it comes to descrimination.  That is the same thing that blacks fought with respect to the Confederate flag.  

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:15:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

The Missouri Synod Lutheran Church for one (3.00 / 1)

says that per doctrine women should not be ministers (this is different from the larger Evangelical Lutheran Church, which does ordain women). It would not surprise me if other conservative or fundamentalist Protestant churches shared this doctrinal view.

What bothers me a tad is that examples like this from Protestantism are rarely discussed, and it is always the Vactican that is held up as the Big Bad Guy. Considering the history of discrimination against Catholics in this country it's hardly surprising that remnants like this are still kicking around our culture. Not surprising, but disappointing nonetheless.

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:26:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I would gladly discuss protestant as well. (3.00 / 1)

I really don't care who is descriminating, it's not right.  The story was on the Vatican and that was the reference.  Provide your reference and we'll include it.  No problem.

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:29:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

From Wiki (3.00 / 2)

The Missouri Synod teaches that the ordination of women as clergy is contrary to scripture. The issue of women's roles in the church body has continued to be a subject of great debate within the Synod. Women received the right to suffrage within Missouri Synod congregations in 1969, and it was affirmed at the Synod's 2004 convention that women may also "serve in humanly established offices" as long as those offices do not include any of the "distinctive functions of the pastoral office." Thus in many congregations of the LCMS, women now serve as congregation president or chairperson, readers, ushers, etc

.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

The above is consistent with my own personal experience being raised in the Mo Syn, and my continuing contacts with that branch of the Lutheran church through my extended family.

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:36:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I see no reason why (3.00 / 2)

women shouldn't be equal in ALL churches.  It doesn't make sense.  Why should we fight to force businesses to treat us equally and stand by and allow ANY church to descriminate openly (or not openly) against us.  We aren't equal until the last one of us is equal.  What about those women who want to serve their churches in whatever capacity.  It's simply not right and that includes all churches IMO.

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:42:07 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

This is about interpretation of doctrine (3.00 / 1)

and - especially in a secular society that has a separation of church and state - that is a different matter from the government codifying discrimination by law.

In issues of interpretation of doctrine the churches need to come to this by themselves. I am hopeful that many of them will, but especially with older religions like the RCC (which counts time in terms of centuries, not years or decades), it may take a while longer.

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:51:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

But does it make sense. (3.00 / 1)

Perhaps that's why I don't go to church anymore.  I feel that what is honest is hones.  I don't give lip service to equality and then submit myself to inequality.  It's simply not right and I don't like to feel like I am not being true to myself.

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:56:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's your choice... (3.00 / 1)

...again, if we had state sponsored religion, as happens in the UK, then this would be a completely different way of approaching the issue.

Because it's doctrine and because we don't have state sponsored religion, we have to maintain a balance between freedom of religion and the ability (or appropriateness) of the state to regulate religion in these matters.

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:02:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've got to (3.00 / 2)

agree with you on this one...

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by: fredly @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:36:32 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

From religioustolerance.org (3.00 / 2)

(source material is pretty extensive):

Southern Baptist Convention: The SBC is by far the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. They have about 1,600 ordained women filling various roles. In recent years, fundamentalists have won a power struggle with moderates within the denomination. The SBC released a document on 2000-MAY-18 that states: "While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture." The statement cites 1 Timothy 2:9-14, which says in part, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man." There is no consensus over the accuracy of this passage:  Fundamentalists accept the validity of the preamble in 1 Timothy which states that Paul is the author of the book; most believe that the book was written by him, perhaps circa 62 CE.

Most religious liberals reject the authorship of Paul. They feel that the book was written by an unknown Christian circa 100 to 150 CE -- some 35 to 85 years after Paul's death. The anonymous author reversed some of Paul's and Jesus' policies, including equal treatment of women.

The statement is consistent with the SBC's 1998 ruling that a wife should "submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband." The Baptist Faith and Message Study Committee issued a statement in response to questions raised about their recommendations. 8 They explained that they dealt "with the issue of women in the pastorate [at this time because they] were driven by biblical authority, a sense of urgency, and the near unanimous verdict of our churches....There is no biblical precedent for a woman in the pastorate, and the Bible teaches that women should not teach in authority over men... Far less than one percent of churches cooperating with the Southern Baptist Convention have ever called a woman as pastor."

The committee recommendation was ratified at the SBC annual meeting on 2000-JUN-14.

snip

On 2000-OCT-21, Jimmy Carter, former President of the U.S. and a Sunday school teacher with the Southern Baptists since the age of 18, has severed ties with his denomination. He and his wife Rosalynn have felt "increasingly uncomfortable and somewhat excluded, in recent years." The denomination's statement that prohibits women from serving as pastors and which requires women to be submissive to their husbands was the final straw. Carter said: "I think there ought to be the ability for Baptists who have slightly different commitments to Christianity to get along, work together and love each other."

link: http://www.religioustolerance....

The above also points out that the Eastern Orthodox Church (separate but just as old as the RCC) does not ordain women.

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by: grannyhelen @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:46:04 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

That doesn't surprise me either. (3.00 / 3)

That's one reason I admire Jimmy Carter so much.  He stands tall and squarely faces injustices regardless. I have been to his Maranetha Church and it is the most hospitable church I've ever attended.  As far as I can see, they haven't suffered any ill effects by allowing women to serve.

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 09:54:20 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

If I had 2 leaders to choose to have lunch with.... (3.00 / 4)

it would be Jimmy Carter and John Edwards.

Push for Voter-Owned Clean Elections: Be A Citizen Co-Sponsor

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by: gildareed @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:53:38 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Before the late 1960's in Québec (3.00 / 6)

The Catholic Parish Priests were literally telling the Women that they had to reproduce every year or they would go to Hell. One result of this was that my Partner's Adoptive Mother was one of 19 Children.

I'm not a fan of the Intolerance of Women or discrimination of Women by any Religion, and you'll find alot of it in all of the major World's religions except the Pagans/Wiccans, which seem to afford Women an equal footing and respect.
The problem is that what Religion does, the Government seems to follow. This, because our Officials put their Religion before Governmental Laws & Protections & Rights.

I believe in complete Separation of Church & State..Complete separation.


(-8.50/-7.44) "If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion." Dalai Lama

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by: Predictor @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 10:02:37 AM CDT

Religion and spirituality are 2 different things. (3.00 / 4)

I read something yesterday by a polio survivor and local comedian in her short book "Bitter or Better".  Marion Wikholm wrote that religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell and spirituality is for those who have already been there.

I am a Roman Catholic by heritage and by 12 years of education.   But I have so much trouble reconciling some of its doctrines and traditions.  Though I do not see other religions as better, I hesitate to defend my own.  Until all men and women are accepted as equal parts of the same human family, until child abusers and the hierarchy who tried to hide them away become accountable, until sensible positions on birth control are allowed, until permission is given for worshipers to use their own brain cells to dissect centuries-old doctrines,  I will continue to have problems defending my church. I do not want my church, any more than I want my government, dictating to me what I must believe.

As for women as priests, it is something I have never had a desire to do.  I have never had the desire to be president or an astronaut or a soldier or a racecar driver either.  But for those women who do aspire to these things and have the physical and mental attributes required to perform well, the sky should be the limit.  

Government has no right to tell churches anything about who may marry or who may lead their congregations.  Churches have no right to tell government how to govern and which people deserve which civil rights.  Separation of church and state is imperative.  

Push for Voter-Owned Clean Elections: Be A Citizen Co-Sponsor

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by: gildareed @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 11:51:58 AM CDT

Amen to that (3.00 / 3)

Good post.

US Casualties-Afghanastan Can click date link to see by date.


The imperative is to define what is right and do it. Barbara Jordan

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by: OneCarolinaGirl @ Fri May 30, 2008 at 13:13:20 PM CDT

[ Parent ]